On Monday, BodyBreak’s Hal Johnson released a video on YouTube detailing two occasions he experienced racism when he was applying for a job with TSN in 1988 while trying to launch the television exercise program BodyBreak alongside Joanne McLeod. Two days later, Johnson joined TSN 1050 Toronto’s Game Day with Matt Cauz to discuss the video and how Johnson overcame barriers to become one of the most accomplished TV personalities in Canadian history.

The following is a lightly edited transcript of their conversation:

Cauz: How did you go from TSN rejecting you for the colour of your skin back in 1988 to then by early 2000 becoming a big part of TSN*?

Johnson: Well it was two incidents with TSN. One was when I went in, I wanted to be a sports broadcaster, I wanted to be like you. And I’m a sports guy, I love sports and I put a tape together – a demo tape – came into TSN and went in and I’m joined by a gentleman by the name of Jack Hutchison. He gave me an audition, he looked at my tape and said you’re a little raw but I really like what you’ve got and he hired me. And that was at 11 in the morning and then I got a phone call at 2 in the afternoon and he said, literally in tears, he was very upset, that he had to call and tell me that I couldn’t be a – he said you’re fired. The higherups would not allow him to hire me because they didn’t want to have Mark Jones and myself on at the same time. So that was disappointing, it was something that I’ve never forgotten obviously. It’s embedded in me.

In fact, when I did that video and I mentioned that, I just literally opened up and I wasn’t thinking about what I was saying. And I wasn’t thinking of saying Mark Jones’ name. I wasn’t thinking of saying Jack Hutchison’s name, it just came out. And I just told the story. It was as if there was somebody else telling it and I was just there as a conduit. That was the first time with TSN and then after I’d got the idea and other incidents happened that spawned the idea for BodyBreak and Joanne and I got together. I took it around to 42 different companies and this was the key thing that really ignited us is that all the companies told [me that] nobody wanted to sponsor it or put it on their air. But I was always positive that hey, nobody’s ever seen anything like this before. Then I went into TSN, a different person at TSN. And he loved it. He said I’d love to have it on and but because I’m Black and Joanne’s white they can’t put it on. He said he couldn’t put it on the air. And so that afternoon I went home and again, I wasn’t angry because you can’t think right when you’re upset and angry. So, I just looked at the phone – and I do that whenever I want to come up with an idea – I was looking at the phone and kind of going into a chant saying, ‘Who can I call, what can I do? Who can I call, what can I do?’ I do this for 10-to-15 minutes and then all of a sudden, I turn to Joanne and I said who does the fitness for the government? And she says ParticipACTION. I called them and we had a meeting two days later. Within about five weeks or so we had a contract to do six episodes and we were off and running. From there we extended the contract and we were with ParticipACTION for two years.

*Johnson appeared on Off the Record with Michael Landsberg as a guest dozens of times beginning in 2000.

Cauz: There’s so many places to go with this, the first thing is I just want to compliment you on doing something that most people couldn’t. To push away any anger and to focus on the task at hand is so difficult because a lot of times in life, we externalize problems instead of internalizing. There’s a lot of times where we’re like, ah I should have got that job, but the boss didn’t like me. So, you blame the boss instead of looking in the mirror and thinking, oh, maybe there’s something I could do different. But in your case, this is the exact opposite. You did everything right and you were rejected because of the colour of your skin and yet you never got deterred. When I watched that video that’s one of the things that stood out. That is remarkable by you and is not I don’t think a common trait.

Johnson: Well I just look at what my dad has gone through. My dad was a travelling baseball player – barnstorming they call it – back in the day. And there was a movie made about it called The Bingo Long Travelling All-Stars & Motor Kings. That’s how my mom and dad met. My mom is from Saskatoon and my dad is from South Philly. And so my dad has gone through so much that what I go through is miniscule compared to him and he always told me don’t get angry in situations, just figure out what you need to do and you’ll find your way. So that’s what I’ve always kind of thought about is that there’s always a way if you think about it and not get angry. And I understand anger. It comes out of frustration. It comes out of not having hope. If you don’t have hope you lash out. And I think I still have hope and my dad said last week, he’s 88 now, he says he has more hope today than ever before because he sees the marches and the protests that there are more white people in the marches than there are people of colour. So, he’s more hopeful today than ever before.

Cauz: What do you hope for your video? And by the way, you telling that story was incredible because that was a really emotional story. I’m watching it and I’m angry and I’m sad and I’m ashamed and I’m upset at a station that I love here at TSN. So, all those emotions are going through me. You told it so matter of fact and you did it with this pitch perfect emotion.

Johnson: Thank you. I’ve seen so many comments of people saying they’re angry. There’s no reason to be angry. Things turned out okay. That’s kind of how I look at it. There’s no reason to be angry. That was obviously 32 years ago, TSN has been bought and sold two or three times since then, different owners, and so it’s not the same people. But you know, [I certainly] didn’t come to do this. I wasn’t even thinking about this in a sense. I had a lot of my white friends call me and say what can I do? I don’t want to say the wrong thing, I don’t want to post the wrong thing, I want to be supportive but what do I do? And it got me thinking about just that. And I would tell them just listen. That’s all you need to do is listen. That’s the great thing right now, I think people – all people – are listening. As I was saying that to a couple of friends, I thought you know what? I think it might be time to say something. Because I was searching for what to say. I was going up to the cottage and there’s two shooters in Collingwood, two videographers that I know and they’re actually going to be doing a documentary on Joanne and me. And I said I’m going to be going up to the cottage, how about we shoot this real quick thing and you guys can ask me some questions for the documentary about this. And they said great. So, I went up and literally shot it in 10 minutes. I didn’t really know what I was going to say specifically at all before I just talked to the camera for four and a half minutes.

Cauz: It catches you right from the start when it’s BodyBreak was created to battle racism. Who couldn’t watch it at that point? If you haven’t seen the video, trust me it’s easy to find. Type his name in Google, it will come up pretty quickly. What was your reaction? You mentioned that was 32 years ago, TSN has been bought and sold a couple times but that doesn’t mean that’s not an ugly story that needs to be addressed. What were your thoughts when they put out a statement and an apology towards you and Joanne?

Johnson: Well they certainly didn’t need to do that. I’m not a victim. I’ve never felt that way. You know over the years TSN has been probably one of our biggest supporters. As you say I’ve been on Off the Record so many times. Amazing Race. You know, there was no ill will my way to CTV or TSN and certainly I never felt that from them. I really looked back and it was a couple of people who weren’t racist, who weren’t prejudiced but who were afraid. They were afraid of doing something out of the norm. Afraid that if perhaps they did, they would lose their job. They weren’t willing to, in their minds, take a risk, so they went the safe route. And that’s the way because, honestly, when you think about it, when people get hired, and I’m kind of a sociologist, I like the psychology of things. I know when I was in sales that you’ve got to connect with that other person on their turf, what’s important to them. And so, when people are interviewing other people, they look for people like themselves. So, you’re interviewing somebody and, ‘Oh you’re from Barrie? I’m from Barrie.’ All of a sudden there’s a connection. When you like somebody or look very different from somebody, it’s harder to get that connection of things. So, often people will be not a mirror image, but they’ll have a connection of some sort with the person that they’re hiring.

Cauz: We see this in the NFL. I think with owners, some owners are racist, but I think a lot of it is they’re either greedy, ignorant or afraid of a president, afraid of some of their fan base. And then with coaching you’re going to hire people that you know and this sort of ties into – I hope with your video what it can lead to is more hiring of minorities so that once there are more people that don’t look like me, then it just leads to a greater diversity down the road.

Johnson: Absolutely. What I’ve always kind of scratched my head with and I’ve always had – and I don’t talk about it very much – but I’ve always had the bee in my bonnet is that with TSN and with Sportsnet. I don’t know and it would be great to figure out. What percentage of athletes that are covered on these networks are of colour? And how many people are there of colour talking to those athletes? Because I can assure you that a Black athlete talking to a Black reporter is going to get something different. Not better. Not better, just different. How comfortable, Matt, would you feel talking to a Raptor about, you know a Raptor who is from Mississippi, and talking to him about how do you find the difference between living in Toronto versus living in Biloxi, Miss.? How do you feel when you go down the street? Because I know what it’s like to live in the United States. I feel like I’m hunted when I’m in the U.S. I do not feel that way at all in Canada. And I know the difference, I know the feeling. There’s a feeling, and that’s all it is. It’s having diversity. You come at it from a certain perspective, but if you have everybody coming at it from that perspective, you don’t get a different perspective. The voice might be different, but the perspective is similar. Why isn’t there someone, not just one, but some people who have disabilities covering sports in some capacity? If mobility is an issue in a sense, then on the radio. Persons with disabilities that come at it from that perspective.

I have a very good friend of mine, Lowell Taylor, who was on the Amazing Race, Season 4. He was the blind racer. Imagine that? Doing the Amazing Race and you’re legally blind. He is also on the Para Cycling National Team. So, he is quite an interesting brave man. But he could bring a different perspective to sport certainly than I could. And that’s what I’m saying. I hope in C-suites they open up their eyes and they look around and say everybody looks like me. We should have a lot of – not just because it’s the thing to do. They do it because it is the right thing to do.

Cauz: And it serves the viewer as well. If you have as many different perspectives it usually leads to better content.